giveNow_Button
News Smart Talk Castle Doctrine expansion could address PA self defense rights
Monday, 14 March 2011 16:19

Castle Doctrine expansion could address PA self defense rights

Written by  Craig Cohen

The Pennsylvania Senate last week approved legislation to expand the Castle Doctrine in Pennsylvania and a similar proposal in now before the State House of Representatives..

The Castle Doctrine says, in essence, that in your home, you're legally protected if you should have to use deadly force to defend yourself from a violent attacker. The legislation would remove a clause in Pennsylvania's law which says you have a "duty to retreat" when threatened by that attacker anywhere else.

The bill is designed to provide protections against criminal prosecution or civil litigation, but with that clause removed, does it now put too much power in the hands of gun owners, who would be able to use deadly force most anywhere, provided they believe they're being seriously threatened?

We'll talk it over with Representative Scott Perry, who's sponsoring the measure in the Pennsylvania House, and Max Nacheman, Executive Director of Cease Fire PA.

Listen to the program:

comments  

 
# Louise 2011-03-15 09:28
Are we returning to vigilante justice? Give everyone a gun and let them decide for themselves who they want to shoot. Would that finally make the NRA happy? I would like to be able to walk around not worrying about where the next bullet is coming from.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Dave Murphy 2011-03-15 09:33
As many people are doing today, both gentlemen are using terms like "it's a fact" or "most people believe" or "most people know". Without regard to my views on the subject, these terms detract from their arguments and are overused in our society. Please challenge the speaker whenever the terms are used.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Lisa 2011-03-15 09:36
Many of the proponents of this expansion are conservatives and self-proclaimed Christians. What is so Christian about not following the duty to retreat? Christ said to turn the other cheek, not attack before attacked! The duty to retreat is vital to civilized society and the protection of innocent bystanders by "law-abiding" citizens.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Peter 2011-03-15 09:47
In Texas a Japanese student came to the front door and rang the bell and the home owner shot and killed the student. Home owner was home free.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Pamela 2011-03-15 09:50
There are a number of reasons to strengthen the castle doctrine: If criminals knew they could be shot dead by an armed law-abiding citizen, they might be less likely to attack, resulting in less violence rather than more. I am a petite woman who has no hope of successfully "fleeing" from a larger, faster attacker. Why should I be at the mercy of malicious persons? If they thought I could be armed, they might be less likely to attack. The castle doctrine should be reinforced to INCLUDE public places, and should be accompanied by stronger victim's rights legislation. If criminals are the only ones who are armed, what's to stop them from taking over our public spaces? Our police forces are already overworked. An armed citizenry would DECREASE violence by deterring criminals from acting in the first place.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Dale 2011-03-15 09:52
Representative Perry commented that in this country we don’t give up our rights and freedoms to make the job of law enforcement easier. We absolutely do! Take the case of CCTV surveillance in the city of Lancaster, the most heavily surveyed city in the country. Currently there are no safeguards against misuse of the system other than self-policing by the organization that monitors the cameras. There are no fixed shields on these cameras that guarantee to prevent unwarranted voyeurism for any cameras that are pointed in the direction of private residences, and advocates insist that, despite these shortcomings, CCTV surveillance is essential for law enforcement. Digital masks are the only safeguards currently in use, and yet, to date, no legislator, or government official, has taken up issue with the inadequacies of this solution and the possible infringement against the right to privacy for law-abiding citizens.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Jeremy 2011-03-15 09:58
I would agree that the expansion of this legislation is unnecessary if I knew there would be a police officer there if I was in trouble or I could count on the assistance of my peers. But alas neither is reliable so on with the expansion.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Lisa 2011-03-15 09:59
Wouldn't an expansion of the castle doctrine give a legal defense to a gangbanger who is the "victim" of a driveby? If they were not committing a crime at the time of the attack, wouldn't this expansion of the castle now give them a legal defense for returning fire? Is any training required of gunowners since the one listener had a valid point about if a "law-abiding" citizen does not have appropriate training on usage of their weapon guaranteeing that they will be a good enough shot not to hit innocent bystanders? It has been repeated several times on this show that it is ultimately up to the DA's as to whether someone gets prosecuted. So is it really necessary to create yet another law? I think not.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Dale 2011-03-15 10:02
The issue, simply stated, is a dispute between whether to keep or remove a clause in Pennsylvania's law which says you have a "duty to retreat" when threatened. I think retaining the clause with further clarification is the solution. Far too often legalese suffers for its vagueness. There should be stipulation that retreat is always the first option, but the citizen has the right to defend him/herself when this option is not practical. Doesn’t that satisfy both?
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Serge 2011-03-15 10:11
The change in the law seems to change the responsibility of the prosecutor to investigate and prosecute the victim unless the prosecutor is completely sure that the victim has acted in compliance with the current law of retreat. I have been told, when purchasing a side arm and when applying for a permit to carry, that when I or any victim has used his or her weapon in self-defense that the victim should not talk to the police or prosecutor without a defense attorney present because the victim will be prosecuted until it is absolutely clear that the victim was acting in self defense in compliance with the law. This costs much of the victim's money after he or she has been victimized until the prosecutor has sufficient evidence that the victim was justified in using deadly force. I think this is what the change in the law is trying to address, which is the automatic prosecution of victims who did not appear to adequately retreat in the prosecutor's eyes.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Joe 2011-03-15 10:14
It's a shame that our system has brought us to the point that we have to legislate common sense behavior. Any scenario where a victim or potential victim has to somehow justify their reaction to danger makes no sense. This legislation, in my mind is a victim's rights bill.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Dale 2011-03-15 10:41
I am always wary when fear is the primary motivator for action. Is this the case with the Castle Doctrine revision? Our governor is currently making a bid to increase spending on law enforcement, and though I acknowledge the need and support an adequately funded law enforcement and military, in lieu the current economic and budget crises which have resulted in deep cuts for necessities such as health and education, I find it despicable when fear dictates public policy to the detriment of the overall welfare of citizens. I can’t resist but to reference here the oft-cited, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety,” by Franklin.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Judy Yupcavage, PA Coalition Against Domestic Violence 2011-03-15 10:41
Our concerns with the bill involve the fact that guns increase danger for victims of domestic violence. Guns are used in over 50% of domestic violence homicides-in many cases, the difference between a battered woman and a dead woman is a gun. We are are opposed to the revised Castle Doctrine bill because it will give give dangerous and violent individuals, specifically domestic violence perpetrators yet another excuse for criminal behavior. The end result of this bill will be to encourage these individuals to believe that there may be an excuse for a deadly attack.

When there is a shooting, an investigation will occur whether the Castle Doctrine is changed or not. Even under the new bill, an investigation will occur to assess "the resonableness" of the shooter's belief, as even Representative Perry admits. So selling this law as getting the government off gun owners backs is a fallacy. When there is a shooting there will still be an investigation-no doubt. So if this is the main reason for Representative Perry's argument, why revise the law? Do Pennsylvanians really want there to be no investigation when there is a deadly shooting? Does Representative Perry really want there to be no investigation for deadly shootings?

Enacting legislation enabling individuals to use deadly force is irresponsible without requiring that the gun owner at least knows how to use a gun. We require training for police officers before they can go out in public carrying a gun, where is the training for the individuals who are being emboldended by Represntative Perry's law?
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Travis 2011-03-15 10:47
I think every citizen has the right to self defense. There are many people legally carrying firearms at this very moment and to think this law would create the "wild west" is absurd.

Regardless of the wording of the law, I think that if a person believes they are going to be killed or seriously hurt they will defend themselves appropriately and let the law sort out if they were right or wrong. This new change would not effect the police officers need to investigate the situation. The only reason that a person, as the Representative has said, would have to go up to the point of prosecution is if the situation did not appear on the up and up.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Art 2011-03-15 11:48
I’m confused. Can the representative explain how law enforcement will be able to determine whether the action was protected under the law (current or proposed) without the investigation he his trying to protect people from?
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Nicole Lindemyer, PA Coalition Against Domestic Violence 2011-03-15 12:49
In considering the prudence of the proposed expansion of Pennsylvania’s Castle Doctrine, the PA Coalition Against Domestic Violence believes it is imperative to consider two key points of essential relevance to the Castle Doctrine.

First, contrary to stereotype, the vast majority of violence in the home is not committed by strangers, against whom innocent residents must stand their groundand shoot to defend themselves. Rather, the overwhelming majority of violence in the home—the locus of the “Castle Doctrine”—is committed by dangerously violent abusers who have an established family or household relationship with their victims, most commonly as a current or former intimate partner.

The number of females shot and killed by their husband or intimate acquaintance was more than three times higher than the total number murdered by male strangers using all weapons combined (156 victims) in single victim/singleoffender incidents in 2007.

The bottom line is that when thinking of the persons against whom lethal force in the home is used, the image of the scary stranger breaking in a window must be replaced with that of persons whom victims know and have relationships with, for they are the ones who commit most of the violence occurring in our “castles.”

Second, contrary to stereotype once again, firearms are rarely used to effectively protect one’s self against attack. While many presume that having a gun in the home will protect one’s self against attack, quite the opposite is true.


 According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, there are an average of about 108,000 defensive uses of guns each year, compared to about 1.3 million crimes committed with guns.

 In 1998, for every one woman who used a handgun to kill an intimate acquaintance in self-defense, 83 women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance using a handgun.
 Epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that,people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun.[
In the particular context of homes affected by domestic violence, promoting the use of firearms by domestic violence victims against their perpetrators—as expanding the Castle Doctrine necessarily does—in fact increases the risk that incidents of domestic violence will result in homicide. Family and intimate assaults involving firearms are twelve times more likely to result in death than non-firearm-related assaults.

If this expansion of the Castle Doctrine is purported to be a measure to strengthen crime victims’ rights to use deadlyforce for self-protection, then lawmakers must be aware that it simply does not reflect the reality that most lethal violence in the home is committed by thecurrent and former intimate partners of victims. The myth that arming yourself will protect you againstviolent attack must give way to this reality.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Jim 2011-03-15 13:33
If I understand what Representative Perry said today, he is proposing a major change to PA law that would expand the right to use deadly force but he can cite NO cases where current law was not adequate. There are no known cases where a person used deadly force to repel an attack where the person was prosecuted under current law but would be protected under his proposed law. I submit that if he cannot give us an example of a case where his change to the law is needed, his position is outrageous. This is a proposed law in search of a problem.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Jim 2011-03-15 13:54
Rep. Perry is proposing a significant change to state law on the use of deadly force. Yet he cannot cite a single case where a person has been prosecuted for responding to an attack with deadly force where he or she was prosecuted under existing law and would not have been prosecuted under his proposed law. That's because THERE ARE NO SUCH CASES, so far as anyone can determine. This proposed law is a solution in search of a problem, and amounts to pandering of the worst sort. We've got a lot of real problems. Can't Rep. Perry focus on some of them?
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Steve 2011-03-15 20:01
I came looking for all these documents that Rep. Perry said he had back at his office that I guess he forgot to bring to show in which he is defending this bill. Where would I find those?
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Maria Neville 2011-03-15 20:07
Please do not pass this law. I would feel much less safe. It will certainly encourage more people to carry guns (even though this is not the intent) many who do not know how to use them safely. I agree with the woman who stated that we are going back to the Wild West. I understand that at present about 25,000 people die from guns each year in our own land.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# John L. Herritt 2011-03-17 12:45
How much money did Rep. Perry (and other members of the PA State Legislature) receive from the NRA? I fear that this law will cause more problems than it solves. I think that we need to focus on keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. I certainly don't have a problem with responsible hunters and sportsman owning guns. But the illusion that everyone has a right to own a gun is based on an irresponsible Surpreme Court ruling. I am disappointed with the host for not asking Mr. Perry about domestic violence cases and requiring all gun owners be trained.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Craig Cohen 2011-03-24 13:14
Steve - Thanks for writing. You can find what Representative Perry sent us at:

http://www.witf.org/smart-talk/rep-scott-perry-follow-up-on-castle-doctrine

- Craig
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 
 
# Travis 2012-03-19 21:12
1st the use of force deadly or otherwise is my right as a human being to use indefense of myself or loved ones with/without a firearm. I can deal with any and all consiquences because I will be alive.... No matter what the law says anywhere.
2nd many other states including florida have self defense laws outside of the home and there is not a "wild west" issue. It just amazes me at the general ignorense in the general public regarding the 2nd amendment and common sense. I will live and so will my family inside my house or at Starbucks regardless of any laws any where in the world.
Reply | Reply with quote | Quote | Report to administrator
 

Add comment


Security code
Refresh

Radio Smart Talk Sponsors

pinnaclehealth300x75

CBC300x75

Smart Talk TV Sponsors

PPL300x75

PSMSHMC300x75

Stay Connected to witf

Ticket Giveaway Button
ListenLIVE_Button
WatchNow_Button

Support for witf is provided by:

Become a witf sponsor today »

Support for witf is provided by:

Become a witf sponsor today »